The HIDDEN Edge: What You’re Not Saying Could Be Costing You
What happens when a competitor won’t even look at you in the hallway?
Avery Lanman knows the feeling—and shares how choosing professionalism over pride changed everything. In this candid episode, Lisa and Cindy dig deep with Avery on rep dynamics, OR pressure, and how to be taken seriously when you’re still learning the ropes. Avery’s advice? Trust wins. Always.
From building his own rep curriculum to knowing when to step aside for the sake of the patient, this episode is packed with powerful takeaways for new and veteran reps alike.
Episode Chapter Markers
00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction
02:21 Avery's Background and Journey
03:54 The Impactful LinkedIn Post
06:12 The Importance of Speaking Up
09:11 Personal Growth and Self-Awareness
15:11 Life-Changing Health Event
20:07 Handling Competitive Tensions
20:43 Building Professional Relationships
22:13 Personal Reflections on Professionalism
24:07 Maximizing Learning Opportunities
28:19 The Importance of Honesty in Sales
31:13 Avery's Journey and Advice
Must-Hear Insights and Key Moments
The Hallway Standoff – Avery shares a real story about a competitor who refused to acknowledge him—and the surprising way he responded.
Initiative Is Everything – Learn how Avery taught himself OR systems by using the very trays he was delivering.
Trust Over Transaction – Why Avery sometimes gives away business to competitors—and gains more in return.
Rep-to-Rep Etiquette – Lisa and Avery unpack how sales reps can stay competitive without becoming combative.
How Women Rep Differently – Lisa opens up about female competition in the field and the pressure to protect success.
The Self-Made Curriculum – Avery details the 16-week plan he pitched to get off salary and onto commission faster.
Own Your Development – Advice for reps who feel stuck doing grunt work—and how to flip it into growth.
The Operating Line – Avery shares what’s next: an educational series to bridge the gap between medtech reps and manufacturers.
Words of Wisdom: Standout Quotes from This Episode
“If you're not looking up and saying hello to your competitors, you're taking this job too seriously.” - Avery Lanman
“I was driving around with all the information I needed to learn—and I wasn’t using it.” - Avery Lanman
“Giving away part of a case for the patient’s best outcome will always come back to benefit you.” - Avery Lanman
“What comes around goes around. People remember how you treated them.” - Cynthia Ficara
“You’ve done what you’re supposed to do—don’t worry if someone won’t look you in the eye.” - Cynthia Ficara
“Women, you don’t have to be ugly to win. Let go of that scarcity mindset.” - Anneliese Rhodes
“Taking initiative takes energy, but the return is huge.” - Anneliese Rhodes
About Jeffrey
Avery Lanman, based in Torrance, California, is the Founder and Principal Distributor at Apollo Solutions. He brings valuable experience from previous roles at DePuy Synthes Companies and has played a key role in generating over $45 million in sales. Avery holds a Bachelor's Degree in Film Studies and Literature from Yale University, earned between 2009 and 2013. In addition to his work in medical device distribution—particularly in novel spine technologies—he is also a writer who collaborates with doctors and spine device companies to craft compelling content.
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A Team Dklutr production
Blog Transcript:
Note: We use AI transcription so there may be some inaccuracies
Anneliese Rhodes: Welcome everyone to another episode of Secrets and Medical Device Sales, brought to you by the Girls of Grit. Today we have another awesome fiery spotlight series coming at you guys, and Cindy and I are so excited for this one, y'all.
Cynthia Ficara: Oh yes we are.
Anneliese Rhodes: And by the way, he's such a cutie. I'm so video. But you guys, I am so excited to have Avery Landman.
Did I say that right? Hang on a minute. Avery Landman, right?
Avery Lanman: Yeah. Perfect.
Anneliese Rhodes: Okay. All right. Declutter. Let me say that again. You guys, we are so excited to have Avery Landman. Join us today. He is an awesome, inspiring medical device sales rep. He owns his own distributorship and oh, by the way, every post he puts out there on LinkedIn literally goes viral.
You guys, I mean, the guy could write a freaking movie out of all the LinkedIn posts, which by the way, you probably should. And you know, the graphics are just as cool. But that's really what drew us in on this one with Avery, was he had a couple of really awesome posts, and one of them really touched our hearts, and both Cindy and I, after reading it thought, you know what?
We're gonna have him on the podcast so we can talk to him.
Path to Purpose in Spine Sales
Cynthia Ficara: I know. So everybody's gonna get to hear that post in a little bit. But Avery, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself so our listeners can know who you are.
Avery Lanman: Thank you so much for having me. It's, uh, an incredible honor and it's great to finally put a face to the phone calls we've been having for you ladies.
So thank you. Um, yeah, a little bit about me. I, um, grew up avid baseball player, obsessed with playing the game. Had an older big brother, always pushed me to be a little bit better, which is fun and also not so fun for people who have brothers out there and know what that's like. But, um. My father's a neurosurgeon in Los Angeles.
That's where I grew up. And, um. I grew up around spine, in the world of spine and going to the hospital with him, doing rounds on Saturdays and meeting nurses. So I kind of became integrated in the wor in the world really young, although it wasn't really my first passion. I was really passionate, obviously, about baseball, but also about filmmaking.
So, um, I played baseball at Yale and did some filmmaking. Was a really great time for a couple of years. Uh, probably could have done a little bit better on the grades, but. Another conversation. Um, and then, uh, you know, I, I couldn't do the kind of individual work that came with working at a talent agency, which is where I worked, and I really missed team comradery and competitive, like goals as a collective.
And so that really drew me into the medical device distribution world. Um. Well, I was actually, I worked for Depu Synthes for a number of years, and then I started my own distributorship. And so here I am, I kind of traveled between Las Vegas and Los Angeles covering, uh, doctors and spine. And, uh, yeah, here we are, 2025.
Anneliese Rhodes: Wow. I love it. Fun, fun life. And you know, I, we, we both know how hard that life really is. You know, it's long hours, it's late nights, it's weekends, it's not all glitz and glamor, and. I really wanna dive right in to this post Avery that you put on LinkedIn a couple of months ago. Really caught my eye. You know, I think a lot of times Cindy and I talk about this a lot, but it's really important in the medical device arena that you are not just another sales rep trying to make a buck.
Trusting Your Gut When It Matters Most in the OR
You are a consultant, you are a partner, and the physicians and the staff are relying on you to not only know your products inside and out, but to be honest and to be truthful, and to speak up when things don't look right. So if you will, will you please read that post for our listeners, because I'm sure that a lot of them have not read it yet or seen it, and I really want them to hear it.
Avery Lanman: Absolutely. I'd be happy to. We'll do, do a little story time, post story time. Um, so the post starts out, it says, uh, I'll never forget the look the surgeon gave me. It wasn't anger, it wasn't panic. It was that quiet calculating pause like he was realizing how close we'd just come. Like he was thinking, good thing someone spoke up.
And the truth is I almost didn't, we were in the OR for a lumbar case, cold room, steel trays under harsh lights, top 100 playing low in the background, the faint smell of iodine in the air. We counted the levels on the x-ray standard process, but visualization was tough. Things looked fuzzy. Steps were progressing.
Everyone in the room was good to go, but something felt off. I stared at the monitor. Something about the count just didn't sit right. I took another look and I thought that might not be the right level, but everyone else was confident. The tech had confirmed, the PA had nodded, and I could feel the pressure creeping in.
What if I'm wrong? What if I speak up and waste time? What if I just don't say anything? But here's the question I keep coming back to, what if I don't say something and I'm right. So I spoke, just, can we double check that level one more time? It got quiet. He looked paused, took another x-ray and adjusted.
No one said anything. We kept going, but the tension shifted. It was a close call. That look he gave me. It was him doing the math, realizing how close we'd come to doing the wrong level. Here's what stuck with me. Worst case I was wrong and we took an extra 30 seconds to be sure. Best case, we avoided a mistake.
That could have been a big problem. Your job isn't to be right all the time. It's to care enough to say something when it matters.
Cynthia Ficara: Wow, that is very impactful. And, and you, you know, um, very eloquent writer as well, because when you talk about the cold trace like you just described in the or, I can feel it.
I can smell it. And I mean, just listening to you read that so many of our listeners out there. Are those people standing there and that tight feeling you get in your chest, the weight you feel of, do I say something, do I not? Is what separates this field from others. And that is the decisions we make each day can impact the life of the patient on the table.
And I think that you really, um. Spoke up very well and you wrote about it, and I think it's very important that we all know that we're all gonna be uncomfortable sometimes. We're all gonna be in a situation like that, but to be able to be brave enough to speak up is just very commendable. So I'm very glad you wrote that and shared that.
Avery Lanman: Thank you very much. Yeah, I mean, I second everything you said. It's a weird feeling, right? Because you're like, there's like this self-conscious weight on your shoulders of like, well, I don't wanna be, I don't wanna draw attention to myself. I don't wanna be the one that called something out. But turns out it was totally fine.
But the, the risk versus the reward on that is, you know, you have to say something.
Anneliese Rhodes: Yeah. You know, that is integrity. Avery, that's, that's strong integrity there and that's also trusting your gut. Um, and Cindy and I talk about that, you know, it takes a level of self-awareness. It takes a level of emotional intelligence, of knowledge, of integrity, but also being humble.
I mean, this job. It really, I don't even think it matters what you're selling or what company you work for, whether you own the company or you're a sales rep or you're a director. You are impacting patients' lives every day, and I think it's so important that people that are in this arena remind themselves of that every morning when they get up.
You know, we have to be so thankful for our jobs because they give us wonderful opportunities with working with brilliant surgeons and impacting patients' lives. But we're impacting patients' lives. And one day that might be us, that might be our parents, that might be our spouse, our children, and it just, it is so important that you stay above.
Stay above all of it. You know, you, you're not looking for the paycheck, you're not looking for the commission. You're looking to do the right thing by the patient, and of course by your surgeons as well. And so I really loved that post because I loved the fact that you put it out there, Avery. You know, not a lot of people are willing to say that kind of stuff and be open and honest and say, Hey, this happened to me.
This is what I just went through and I wanna write about it so you can learn about it. And that's really something that spoke to Cindy and I because that's all we wanna do is help everyone out there every day to get better and better, more successful. Um, and I just really appreciate that post. I mean, you write a lot of amazing posts, but that one really spoke to me.
Avery Lanman: Thank you. It means a lot. I really appreciate that. Yeah, I think it's, it's such an interesting dynamic and you know, it just happens as when you think about when your first couple of days in the or, you know, that that doesn't even cross your mind to speak up in a scenario like that. But it's, I. It happens progressively, and I think it's so important, right?
Like the six months I started in this industry, I felt totally useless and hopeless because there's such a big, like you're drinking from a fire hose. But I think it's so important to kind of just know that as if you just stay grounded and, and stay focused and really focus on the knowledge, clinical knowledge and product knowledge and pair those together, then you kind of get to feel those moments where you.
Like, oh, I should, I should say something. Right. Do you feel like that's kind of been the case for both of you as well?
When Doing the Right Thing Is the Only Thing
Anneliese Rhodes: Absolutely. And I was gonna, I was gonna ask you, did the surgeon say anything after the case, or did anybody say anything after the case to you?
Avery Lanman: Um,
Anneliese Rhodes: or was it an undercurrent? Maybe?
Avery Lanman: I think there's, this particular surgeon is kind of like a.
He's very like low key. He's very calm and he kind of just gave me like a fist bump and like a Yeah. You know, like I, yep, that's all you need those all time. But I kind of got it and I was like, yes. You know, those small moments of acknowledgement are like, we don't get that many thank yous. Not or anything.
We don't. It's okay. We'll take it. We'll take it.
Cynthia Ficara: We, we take thank yous in body language and sign language too. That's perfectly fine. But you didn't do it for the accolades, you know, I mean, right. You said it. You cared enough. And you know, I think I also wanna point out something in what you wrote, um, and you explained that in that scenario, you simply said, can we just double check this?
So I think it's very important that people understand. It's not always what you say, but it's how you say it. And it sounded like you approached that as just a very caring, let's double check, let's make sure we are in, you know. The right Lombard number. Um, otherwise it, it could, it could be a problem. And I also like how you just described.
Yep. And then they moved on. Everybody went about their day because mm-hmm. That's kind of how it should be, you know, you're focusing on at the moment, afterwards, fist bumps. Awesome. But you now know, again, when you get that feeling and it's, it's like, it's crazy. It's like this in, it's like pushing you or this, it's, it's a feeling that you're like, I need to say something.
I need to say something that, think if anybody has that voice in their head enough just to calmly address it. Otherwise it could be catastrophe.
Avery Lanman: Yeah, and I mean, you're gonna gain so much knowledge about yourself in that scenario, because that's one time that you've decided. Hey, I felt something. I feel like I can recognize that feeling again, and then I can repeat that and continue to kind of be like, okay, this is what it feels like when something's wrong, and I don't know what, it might not even be immediate that you know what it is, but you can work through it and then you can speak up once you identify it, but it makes you look a little closer, I think you feel like that's happened to you too.
Anneliese Rhodes: Absolutely. That's great self-awareness, by the way. Um, yeah, and you know, it's funny sometimes I don't even think we realize that's what's happening, but that's how you grow. That's how you become more respected. And when I asked you the question of did the surgeon say anything, I actually wasn't expecting for that person to have said anything at all.
But it's like the flip side of that is what if you hadn't spoken up?
Cynthia Ficara: What if you
Anneliese Rhodes: allowed it to happen? Knowing that it wasn't the right thing and now the catastrophic events that follow afterwards are so much more damaging. So, you know, I think sometimes people wanna get those attaboys. I. I don't actually think in medical sales, that's what you need to be going after.
Are the attaboys? Sure. Getting up on President's Club. There's your attaboy. Great. Good. But it's in those cases that are the unspoken thank yous that are the quiet, and you keep on going that you know you did the right thing because the flip side of that is so awful and is so ugly and could have really been bad.
And so I think. I hope that people listening are just kind of thinking about maybe an event that happened to them themselves where they did speak up and they did the right thing, and you just don't expect anything in return because you're doing your job. That's why we hired you is to be that person and that's why you have the job that you have, and that's why tomorrow you're gonna get another call from that same surgeon 'cause that's the level that they expect of you.
It's not that you're gonna get the attaboys and the thank you so much and all that. No. If you're going into it expecting that, then you're in the wrong business. I mean, we're doing this for patients.
Cynthia Ficara: Lisa, I think you just said the unspoken, thank you. Now we have another case for you. You know? Yeah, you're exactly right.
Your thank you is you can come back into the or. Yeah. You allowed
Avery Lanman: back. Exactly. No, that's brilliantly said. I mean, you hit the nail on the head. I think it's, it's, it's hard, right? Because you don't get a lot of thank yous when you start. You, you basically are just trailing somebody and trying to learn as much as you can.
Um, but it's, it's like. There's, there's so much competition that you're focusing on when you're younger and you're like, uh, or you know, kind of new into the game and you're kind of, oh, the competitor's here and we wanna get this business. And you know, you kind of get your first assignment of like, Hey, this is your guy and just want you to get this business.
And it's so easy to kind of lose sight of that, but you really just need to be in, in competition with yourself, if that makes sense. Like, did I do what I was supposed to do and could I have done it better? Stop worrying about even the surgeon to that point, and I know that sounds not right, but it's like, Hey, the surgeon might have gotten upset, but did you do everything that you could have done in this particular scenario?
Yes or no? You know, and, and it's, it's hard to lose sight of that even when surgeons are upset or when the numbers aren't right or when the competitor gets a case. That would've been your case, but. I tried it. 'cause for a long time I struggled with him. Like, oh, you know, I let it beat me up all the time.
It was like, this guy got this case, it was my case, or this surgeon wasn't happy and it, you know, he was just having a bad day. His wife was upset about him not taking out the trash or something, you know, I don't know. Um, but does that make sense? Did I read it? Yeah, it
A Life-Altering Wake-Up Call
Cynthia Ficara: does. That is awesome because, you know, I was just gonna ask you, at what point did you just switch?
Or did you just realize, you know what, I've gotta stop beating myself up and kind of look at the grand scheme of things and realize I can, if I only compete with myself, I can only make myself better.
Avery Lanman: I had a major health issue change my life pretty much in 2020. Oh. One, uh, I got one of the first COVID shots and within 24 hours my colon ruptured and I, it adhered to my, it adhered to my, oh my gosh.
And so I had to have a one foot of my colon resected the next morning. It was like an emergent scenario. I thought I was gonna have a colectomy bag. I was like, oh God. I'm gonna be like 31 years old with a colectomy bag. And, um, but it was just induced with such a high stress environment, and all of those things were self-inflicted.
I mean, I, I just wow everything around, I was always worried about my surgeons and I was always worried about competitors and I was worried constantly, you know, like, wow, Avery at night and worried about, and then I just kind of realized like, all this stuff is outta my control. There's only so much, especially in this field.
Even if you're a hundred percent fully dialed in for a case, things are gonna go wrong. And yeah, you know what? You might even get blamed for all of it. And, and at the end of the day, it's like you gotta, you gotta just wipe your shoulders off, get back up and, and go for it. But that, that really changed my life.
'cause I. I was like, you know what, my gosh, I can't control stuff. I'm gonna put my best foot forward in the things that I know that I can do. I'm gonna focus on kind of my intuition and, and how I feel about certain things and just focus on it on the doctors honestly, that I enjoy working with. 'cause there were some that I didn't, and I let those, I let those relationships kind of dissipate, you know?
And that's another thing I learned is you don't have to. Go after every doctor, honestly. I mean, if you don't, if you don't like them and it doesn't add to your day, I mean, you're still working with that person. Maybe this is like, a lot of people don't agree with some of the things I say, but that is one I, I think is something I hold close.
I don't wanna work with people I don't like,
Cynthia Ficara: Hey, that is put in perspective. It really does a, a acute, like not to sweat the small stuff, you know? 'cause they turn into such. Big things, you know? And to be able to focus on what's important and, and I think that is, it's so great to be in a position where you can put boundaries up and be around those that only you can get something out of and make you feel better.
And I'm sure when you work with these doctors, you're choosing to work with. You've gotta have a great relationship and I'm sure you have good surgeries and good outcomes because it's a good working environment. But I'm sorry to hear you went through such a stressful I know. My gosh. Wow.
Anneliese Rhodes: It's such a young age.
That's really scary. I'm proud of you for getting through it, being healthy and you know, I hate to say that it brought such clarity to you, but wow. I mean you that wise beyond your years, Avery, you know, a lot of us. Tend to chase that number and tend to just, you know, sales, sales, sales, sales, sales. Like you said, you see your competition, you're angry at them for getting cases, you're mad, you're not nice.
You know, life is short and you saw that really early on and I'm glad to see you. You're doing well now. Um, and I'm sorry that you had to go through that. I'm really sorry. Um, I'm like, it was
Avery Lanman: like the best thing that could have happened to me. I mean, the worst and best thing that could have happened to me in that, you know, because it's just such a.
I mean, it's just life changing. I lost a bunch of weight. You know, it just really changes your,
Anneliese Rhodes: yeah.
Avery Lanman: Your perception of, of what you're doing with your life when you're sitting in the hospital and co during COVID and nobody can come see you.
Anneliese Rhodes: Oh my gosh. Your parents would've been crazy. I would've been nuts.
I would've been going nutty if that was Brady. Oh my gosh.
Avery Lanman: Oh yeah. I mean, my mom was freaking out a little bit, but my dad was just like the doctor and hims like. Yeah. So what's, what's his white blood? Alright, we're good.
Anneliese Rhodes: It sounds like my dad, my dad's a doctor too. He'd been like, so Lisa, you know, like, this is what we're gonna expect.
You're like, you gotta love him for that though, right? Like, they're so scientific and like, you're like okay, I just need a little normalness now. I don't need sterile white. Thank you. Um, I know, but you.
That explains actually, honestly. Okay, everybody listening right now, you need to look up, okay. Pull over the side of the road if you're listening to us in the car and you need to look up Avery Landman on LinkedIn, L-A-N-M-A-N, because every post you post Avery is so well written and so freaking good. I'm like, damn, he just hit another one on the head, you guys.
Now I know. I'm like, no, this guy's amazing. He's a writer, a Lifechanging event. But like everything that you write about is so profound and good. And I was gonna ask it, the, how often do you see yourself before this event and other reps chasing the number, chasing these docs, you know, hating their competition, not appreciating what they have?
The Hidden Cost of Cold-Shoulder Competition
I mean, do you see this, I'm assuming you probably see this a lot. And what do you say to those reps? I mean,
Avery Lanman: do you say to that? Yeah, I do a lot. You know, I, um. I wrote recently about a story of one rep that, you know, we are, we compete in the same account, and to this day, he won't look up at me or say hi to me because one particular doctor.
I hope he listens to this
one particular, what's his name? Right? Um, one particular doctor I've been calling for on for about a year. And that's another thing too that I want to talk about is like, it takes, this isn't sales for like software as you guys know. It's like, you know, it doesn't take like a week to get a doctor. You know, I've been calling on this doctor for like about a year and I finally got a couple of cases one week and.
This rep, like I turned the corner and I could just see he was fuming. He was so upset about it, and he confronted me. He's like, why are you trying to take my business? And I had to basically just be like, I would get a beer with you, like any day. You're awesome, man. But you don't think that I'm gonna try to come after every opportunity that I can in this account.
You're crazy. Like you're outta your mind like, but I'm still cordial with you. I think you're great. It's not personal at all. And I'd expect you to be doing the same as what I said. And, and, um, so I guess my, my message is, you know, if you're not looking up and saying hello to your competitors or shaking their hand, you're taking this job too seriously.
It's like, be a human at the ground level. Say hi to people. Yeah. Their hand chat with them. You both are gonna be waiting to have some downtime eyeing each other from the end of the hallway or whatever. Right. Um, but. It just makes, once I took that outta my head and I just was like, I can chat with these people.
They are, we are, we have common ground and I've made so many friends that way and I just can't, I personally, it's a pet peeve of mine. I just can't really understand the whole like competitive, like I. Not say anything to anybody, oh, I'm gonna go down the hallway. I'm gonna get my business. Um, so I would say lighten up and enjoy your life a little bit more.
And you know, you never know. Maybe your company merges and you end up working with that person and they remember, yeah, honestly that guy's not so great to work with. Or that gal was just a little cold shoulder to me. You know, people remember that stuff.
Cynthia Ficara: They absolutely do. What comes around goes around. I was gonna, that's exactly what I was going to, uh, yeah, I was gonna say, because you see it so often, and you're right.
I mean, the, the crazy thing is he's so worried about how you react, yet you're just there to do your job. And I think that, that, that's something else to focus on is like, what are you there to do? You're there to help the surgeon, help this patient. And if somebody doesn't want, doesn't want to speak to you, or if you're afraid that they're gonna look the other way or make a look, who cares?
Who cares. At the end of the day, you've done what you were supposed to do and I think that's really, really important.
Anneliese Rhodes: Okay. I'm gonna be honest here. I'm totally that rep though. You guys like, like I felt after I read Avery's thing, I was like, oh my God, I'm so that rep. I've gotta be nicer to people. Like people are like, they probably think I'm like a big B, right?
Like I've gotten better. I will say, Avery, I've gotten better. But in the beginning, I took my job so seriously. Like I was like, I will come after you if you like, even look at my doctor. You know, like, I'll stab you. No, I'm kidding. But like, I mean, I've gotten better at it, but it, you know, it's a hard thing, right?
Because, and I will say this, as women, as females, we do have, it's like, man, there's like this deep seated competition within women that like, you know, when you climb to the top, when you get to that place. You don't wanna lose it. And so you automatically, I think your response is just pricks up. Uh, nobody's gonna touch me, like I'm not gonna be nice to anybody and I want all the women out there right now to hear that.
You don't have to be that way, Cindy. You're not that way. I don't really see you as that way. I am. No, but you're not. I'm friends
Cynthia Ficara: with my competitors. I'm
Anneliese Rhodes: working. See, I'm working on, I'm working on myself. I'm working on myself. But you know, you don't have to be that way. All the time. Like they're, they're, you know, you just don't have to be so ugly.
So I'm working on that, so thank you.
Avery Lanman: Well, look, I don't think that you necessarily have to be buddy, buddy with them either. I think it's just, Hey, you could say hello. Right. Yeah. Like you, you've seen it. It's like head down, you know that you saw each other. There's one hallway. You're both going one direction.
I know, but still, it's like, where do I look now? Do I just,
Cynthia Ficara: it's like high school. All court ages all over again. It's so hot.
Avery Lanman: It's, it's like you got your backpack and you're just like, oh God,
Anneliese Rhodes: no. And now it's the phones. You're like, I'm looking at my phone even though I see you. Oh,
Cynthia Ficara: I'm really busy. Yeah. Oh, I've got all this, all this business.
How Initiative and Integrity Build Long-Term Success
They're calling me. I gotta go. I'm so important. Oh my God, it's so bad. So that's, no, I know. I know. But. So I love talking about all the great things that we can do. So I do have a question for you though, as far as like thinking of other reps. So we're talking about competition and you know that it's nice to, you know, be nice, let things go, lighten up.
But what would you say is, is a big mistake that you see miss reps make that that may not, I mean, I know we just talked about. Not being nice. It could come back to, um, kicking in the behind if that ever happens. But I mean, when you're in the OR, and I think about your post, how you spoke up and you spoke up, well, what would you say is a mistake early on?
You were talking about maybe in your first six months, you're uncomfortable, you know, the whole first year, you know. What is something that you see or have seen if a rep tries to just make a quick fix of something, but what is a mistake that you can make that you would say, you know, something to be aware of to prevent them from making a mistake?
Avery Lanman: Yeah, a hundred percent. So I have two that really kind of stick out to me as you were asking that. Number one is, you know, I drove a like trays around a lot and then I realized. Wait, what am I, what am I doing? I, I'm driving with all the information that I need in my vehicle and dropping it off at the hospital, and then thinking in my head, man, my whole day was just driving around and doing this, and I didn't learn anything, and I was like, wait, wait, wait.
I need to take that upon myself. I have a tray in my car. Why don't I just pull up this surgical technique guide? It's within the first couple of weeks I'm dropping it off somewhere. Go through it, take pictures of it, make notes of it, understand it, play with everything, then drop it off. It's like you have those opportunities.
And I started to realize later, I was like, man, I'm driving all around town with all the information I need to learn to be a better rep. And to be better in the operating room. And I'm just thinking of like, man, this is so lame. All I do is trays, which is dumb. And then I'm like, wait. And that's one thing I think with a big note is like, as much as you can take off the pressure of like your managers to be like overlooking you and like, Hey, you should learn this and that and take it upon yourself, the better you're gonna be and, and you're gonna become an asset a lot quicker because it's like, I.
That's how I started thinking about everything. Like, how can I take this off of my surgeon's plate? Instead of being like, Hey, would you like this or this? It's just like, Hey, I've got these options. Let me know what you need. You know, it's like they're here, it's ready. Let me know how I can help you. And I, I just, that's one really big one because after I did that, I, I created a curriculum for myself and I said, Hey, look, can we agree, um, if I, if I learn all of these systems and my senior rep.
You know is in the operating with me room with me, and he sees that I do a good job with this. Will you check this off? And I wanna make commissions. I don't wanna be on salary anymore. If I can do this for all of the systems that I have on this curriculum, which I created myself. It's like 16 week thing that I wanna do.
And he said yes. And so I did it. I was like, every week I would go, I'd drop the trays off, I'd look through the curriculum, I would. Talk, you know, I'd get into a case, I'd open the trays, I'd run the case, maybe some notes, some things I can improve. Did I get the stamp of approval from the senior rep and then there was nothing that they could do when it came to the time.
It was like, I know all the systems. You said that I could do this. Are we good? Can I make sense? Wow, please. I love that.
Anneliese Rhodes: Would you like to come work
Cynthia Ficara: for us? Do what? A great self advocate. Oh my God. I feel like
Avery Lanman: it's so, so important though, right? It's like, what do you, because I feel like I see that a lot. I see the kids in like just outta college, rolling into the loading dock, pushing in trays, and I could see it on their face and I'm like, I know it sucks, but take, take this 15, 20, 30 minutes, whatever it does, to go over the stray and take some pictures.
It makes a huge difference.
Anneliese Rhodes: I love that. And they're not just kids, Avery. There are people that are older that have been doing this job for years in medical devices and they're lazy and they don't wanna learn, and they're like, ah, you know, I don't need to learn. Ah, I got this. They, it doesn't matter how old, but you are talking about taking advantage of every opportunity that you are given, whether it's small or it's large, and making it like the best you can, taking the initiative.
Taking the time to do it. I mean it, yeah, it takes energy. It takes a level of commitment, but it's so worth it because look how much further you got in your short amount of time of doing this. I mean, you own your own distributorship now, and you are so much younger than we are. Like, yeah. It's all about taking advantage, full advantage of the opportunities that are presented to you, and that's exactly what you just talked about.
Cynthia Ficara: Absolutely. So the number one mistake is not to, to miss out on the opportunity to teach yourself and step in. So you said there were two mistakes that you were thinking.
Avery Lanman: Yeah, and I got a second one, which is something that I've really over the last, you know, couple of years as I've kind of learned about competitors', product products.
But I almost. I give away business that I don't have the best product for. I tell my surgeons right off the bat if I get a case and they're like, do you have cement? I'm like, I do, but it's not something that I would. Feel comfortable bringing in. Depu has great cement and this is the name of it. And I'll, I'll call the rep and have it for the case because it is much more valuable to get the call based on trust than to get the entire case and have something go wrong during that case.
And it was like, ah, it just didn't go that well. You know, it's not that he, he's not that. It's not that. He's good. Oh yeah. Avery's a nice guy just. It just wasn't as efficient as it could have been. And I started to kind of pick up those things where I was like, great, I wanna own the kid. I don't want any other reps in the room.
I want this to be a hundred percent mine. And I just started to realize like this would just go so much smoother if we just called. I. Depu rep and he brought in his deal and we just did that, it would be so much better. And I just got in the habit of doing that. And honestly, I, it, it's done nothing but just gain trust points and honestly, the most important thing, it's the best thing for the patient.
Just do it. Yeah. It's like, do you really care about the extra couple hundred bucks? Like please just call someone else in, you know, they have a better product. Let 'em do it. I love that and something tells
Cynthia Ficara: me the ROI on your other products just went up. Yep, just went up. Because they build the trust that okay, you may not have the best product for this patient, but I'm gonna call you tomorrow because I know your product is good for this next patient.
A solution, man. And that's how you do this business. You're
Anneliese Rhodes: providing solutions. You know, they call you Avery, and they know you're credible, you're honest, and you're gonna give 'em a solution even if it's not yours. And there are times when we are, we are shown certain films and we know our product is not the best.
And that is on us to tell the doctor, Hey, I think this product is better suited for this patient. It's the right thing to do, and it buys you so much credibility. And those surgeons, they'll call you again. They'll probably call you the next day and say, Hey, I got another one. And I think this one's perfect for your, for your devices.
Um, that is celebr great advice. How often,
Avery Lanman: like how often is when you do that? Is the doctor just gonna be like, oh, I'm no longer ever using your product again. You know? It's like never.
Anneliese Rhodes: That never happens. That never happens. No. That's your fear, right? That's your new fear of, oh, like I, I gotta sell everything in my bag.
Only, only my stuff. But there's, that's why there's competition, because not everything is suited for everybody, right? There's competition for a reason, and certain companies make things better than other companies. So I, I love, I love this one. This was a good one, Avery. Good job. Yeah,
Cynthia Ficara: thank you. Absolutely.
I feel like we could sit here and talk for hours. I know, I know, I know. It's, you give great advice, especially to people coming out and I think it's so important and love hearing about your success. Yes. Um,
Anneliese Rhodes: thank you.
Cynthia Ficara: Tell us, can you. Yeah.
Anneliese Rhodes: Sorry Cindy. I'm like, ah. Tell us about your newsletter really quick.
Yes, that's what I was gonna say. The operating line. I mean, hello. You're such a writer. Like, it's so great. I love great title.
Avery Lanman: Thank you. Tell us about it. Yeah, so, um, honestly, it's been, uh, a little bit of a journey in, in writing. The newsletter, I'm actually working on an educational email series instead of, of like a, just like a monthly digest of what my thoughts are because I'm kind of feeling like, oh, I don't want this to be too similar to my LinkedIn posts.
Um, so I'm working on one right now. It's called, um, this, the Spine Manufacturer's Advantage, and it's just about, um, how to approach distributors or spine salespeople as a manufacturer, like A RSM or. Nice. Um, to, to kind of educate a little bit past the kind of dms that you might get on LinkedIn, which is like, Hey, I'd love to work with you and your doctors.
Why don't you just give me a call and we'll just talk. And you're like, I just can't keep getting those messages. So I, I, I don't know, it's like in my brain. So that's what to expect. Next, I guess from the newsletter is, is we're gonna go straight into an educational email series, but don't worry, there will be ones for reps and things as well, but I felt like this one was one that really could help a lot of really talented and really good people that are trying to kind of grow their business.
They have the right intentions, but maybe just aren't approaching distributors or reps the, the right way. So I'm hoping it helps. Love that.
Cynthia Ficara: Very valuable. You, you bring a lot of value. So for somebody who writes as well as you do, what do you like to read? Do you have any famous, not famous, but um, are there authors, are there leadership?
Are there books that you've read that you find inspiring? Do you have a favorite book?
Avery Lanman: Yeah, I mean, I personally, I really love stoic philosophy, so meditations by Marcus Aurelius is like top of the line. I know I, I'm really into Roman history. I'm really into kind of the minds, like if you think about it, it's like these ideas have been instilled in society for thousands and thousands of years, and there's so much to learn from that.
But it keeps me grounded and it keeps me focused, but I. Uh, yeah, I, I always come back to that book. I mean, you never step in the same river twice, right? So I, I always gain something from that. I've read it like 14 times probably. I
Cynthia Ficara: love that. I love that's, we can put that in our show notes for anybody that's listening that, that wants Oh, to do.
Yeah. But I mean, my gosh. Talk about ground. You going from competitive baseball player. To a Yale graduate, a writer, a filmmaker. You're being you. You're now in your career of owning your own distributorship. It's so commendable and I think that you have given some very valuable human grounded information.
Yes. For a lot of reps out there, and I just can't thank you enough for spending this time speaking with us today. We are so happy to have you. And we can't wait to keep reading what you write. Oh my gosh,
Anneliese Rhodes: yes. I love all of your posts, savory. Keep writing and uh, maybe you'll do like a little quick course on how to create content.
'cause I'll be your first member. This is how you really how to write.
Avery Lanman: No, thank you so much for having me. It has been really great. I really love your energy and everything you're doing for the community. It's so valuable and, um, it's just great. I have a, a little sister. Um, who struggles with confidence sometimes.
And you ladies are like just fantastic to see you. Just such, so much like power and so much success and it's so great to see. And McCall my sister. Follow these ladies. If you see, if you see Thatall, you
Anneliese Rhodes: got this McCall, she tell her you got it. She's got it. Aw, thank you Avery. Thank you so much. You very much.
Avery Lanman: Thank you. It was great. Bye
Anneliese Rhodes: bye.
